Comments on: Episode 66: A heavenly protest, part five https://lastchancedemocracycafe.com/?p=927 Home of the Liberal Burger Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:39:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Again https://lastchancedemocracycafe.com/?p=927#comment-29718 Again Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:22:42 +0000 https://lastchancedemocracycafe.com/?p=927#comment-29718 Chuck <blockquote>In culture 1 or culture 3 or 12 or whatever, they might, and probably do, have different and maybe even opposite ideas of what is “reasoned” to be “just” in any given situation</blockquote> look at it as a programmer in a program you always have 3 levels - system, branch, individual case to be efficient, a program has to fulfill as much as possible on the lower levels - because system works for everything and everything you are able to do on system level, you do for every member/job - and branch works still for all members/jobs of the same kind. Killing more birds with one stone... human societies are just information processing systems - so they have the same "architecture" - you have system elements (each and every human has to eat and to drink), you have cultural elements and you have individual elements - the last "works" just for this one case - and if you want to discuss general problems like "justice", i guess it is reasonable to ignore pure individuality... still there: branch and system - the "branch", the cultures of humankind are nothing valid for all humans (that's "system"), so it has to be "educated stuff" - because e.g. everything about the human body is valid for each member of humankind (ok, genders ignored and small distinctions in health, but as far as i know even the "human races" are biologically seen no real "races", too "equal")... the questioned "thing", justice, is physically seen only an optimum of efficiency in a system - in networking you call it "load-balancing" - that's the reason, why evolution could implement a basic feeling of justice in (nearly) all humans, which - by mutation and selection - would have been impossible, if justice wouldn't be measurable, physical, "real"... but what about education? Culture, education can "create" information by simply fulfilling the checklist of information: repeatable, recognizable states or simply "be visible and be persistent". Than each input, signal, message will be accepted - by brain - as information as long as inconsistency is avoided. That's the reason, how humans living in dense societies can "create their own reality" (remember?) - at least for a while, at least as long as they are strong enough to suppress the reactions of a more natural reality... culture, (the "branch" part) is therefore - as "self made" subsystem - to be analyzed itself, if it is "just" or "injust" - without regard of individuals, just as a "general question"... because the advantage of knowing that justice is a physical state, is after all, that you can use "hard" criteria - and not have to ask for individual feelings, which can be so "individual" that no measurability or definability is possible... just think of the center of gravity in an asymmetric mass - you know, it exists, you know you can find it, but you cannot find it by solely asking the different "atoms" of the mass how much mass they have, you always have to consider the whole "body" to be able to detect the center of gravity... so i guess, to look for the realization of the physical principle "justice", you simply can look in the "programming" of human people, that "tit for tat" thing... which seems to work really nice - just think of the fact, that justice is the optimum of efficiency, which simply means, that more unjustice lowers efficiency and that means - given the same ressources - lower effectivity you can see that very, very nice and cute - on the stock market: <a href="http://www.restud.com/uploads/papers/MS-10063-3-paper.pdf" rel="nofollow">Labor Unrest and the Quality of Production</a> <a href="ftp://ftp.iza.org/dps/dp1203.pdf" rel="nofollow">Distrust – The Hidden Cost of Control</a> <a href="http://cep.lse.ac.uk/textonly/people/vanreenen/papers/oxrep.pdf" rel="nofollow">WORK– LIFE BALANCE, AND PRODUCTIVITY</a> <a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=985735" rel="nofollow">Employee Satisfaction and Equity Prices</a> <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/~ceps/workingpapers/77krueger.pdf" rel="nofollow">Strikes, Scabs and Tread Separation</a> i guess, the finding of those studies will help to see clearer, what justice - as real human actions - mean... Chuck

In culture 1 or culture 3 or 12 or whatever, they might, and probably do, have different and maybe even opposite ideas of what is “reasoned” to be “just” in any given situation

look at it as a programmer

in a program you always have 3 levels - system, branch, individual case

to be efficient, a program has to fulfill as much as possible on the lower levels - because system works for everything and everything you are able to do on system level, you do for every member/job - and branch works still for all members/jobs of the same kind. Killing more birds with one stone…

human societies are just information processing systems - so they have the same “architecture” - you have system elements (each and every human has to eat and to drink), you have cultural elements and you have individual elements - the last “works” just for this one case - and if you want to discuss general problems like “justice”, i guess it is reasonable to ignore pure individuality…

still there: branch and system - the “branch”, the cultures of humankind are nothing valid for all humans (that’s “system”), so it has to be “educated stuff” - because e.g. everything about the human body is valid for each member of humankind (ok, genders ignored and small distinctions in health, but as far as i know even the “human races” are biologically seen no real “races”, too “equal”)…

the questioned “thing”, justice, is physically seen only an optimum of efficiency in a system - in networking you call it “load-balancing” - that’s the reason, why evolution could implement a basic feeling of justice in (nearly) all humans, which - by mutation and selection - would have been impossible, if justice wouldn’t be measurable, physical, “real”…

but what about education? Culture, education can “create” information by simply fulfilling the checklist of information: repeatable, recognizable states or simply “be visible and be persistent”. Than each input, signal, message will be accepted - by brain - as information as long as inconsistency is avoided. That’s the reason, how humans living in dense societies can “create their own reality” (remember?) - at least for a while, at least as long as they are strong enough to suppress the reactions of a more natural reality…

culture, (the “branch” part) is therefore - as “self made” subsystem - to be analyzed itself, if it is “just” or “injust” - without regard of individuals, just as a “general question”…

because the advantage of knowing that justice is a physical state, is after all, that you can use “hard” criteria - and not have to ask for individual feelings, which can be so “individual” that no measurability or definability is possible…

just think of the center of gravity in an asymmetric mass - you know, it exists, you know you can find it, but you cannot find it by solely asking the different “atoms” of the mass how much mass they have, you always have to consider the whole “body” to be able to detect the center of gravity…

so i guess, to look for the realization of the physical principle “justice”, you simply can look in the “programming” of human people, that “tit for tat” thing…

which seems to work really nice - just think of the fact, that justice is the optimum of efficiency, which simply means, that more unjustice lowers efficiency and that means - given the same ressources - lower effectivity

you can see that very, very nice and cute - on the stock market:

Labor Unrest and the Quality of Production

Distrust – The Hidden Cost of Control
WORK–
LIFE BALANCE, AND PRODUCTIVITY
Employee Satisfaction and Equity Prices
Strikes, Scabs and Tread Separation

i guess, the finding of those studies will help to see clearer, what justice - as real human actions - mean…

]]> By: alwayshope https://lastchancedemocracycafe.com/?p=927#comment-29521 alwayshope Fri, 20 Jul 2007 06:23:20 +0000 https://lastchancedemocracycafe.com/?p=927#comment-29521 Thank you, Steve. I really enjoyed these. Pretty neat how you and hizzhoner both "marched into hell for a Heavenly cause." Thanks for another episode that uplifts us! Your wonderful characters are always motivated by their better natures. Their actions and reactions are so honest and honorable, they leave me smiling and hopeful. I need to ponder this story awhile too because it makes me wonder.........what would my reaction be to this Heaven, to the myriad of landscapes and choices? To the rules and the fear? Would I choose justice over dogma and how long would it take me to move on. A lot to think about. Thanks for the fun little trip around heaven! Thank you, Steve.
I really enjoyed these. Pretty neat how you and hizzhoner both “marched into hell for a Heavenly cause.”
Thanks for another episode that uplifts us! Your wonderful characters are always motivated by their better natures. Their actions and reactions are so honest and honorable, they leave me smiling and hopeful.
I need to ponder this story awhile too because it makes me wonder………what would my reaction be to this Heaven, to the myriad of landscapes and choices? To the rules and the fear? Would I choose justice over dogma and how long would it take me to move on.
A lot to think about. Thanks for the fun little trip around heaven!

]]> By: Chuck https://lastchancedemocracycafe.com/?p=927#comment-29503 Chuck Fri, 20 Jul 2007 03:12:27 +0000 https://lastchancedemocracycafe.com/?p=927#comment-29503 How do you define justice? What may seem "just" to "A", may not seem "just" to "B". In culture 1 or culture 3 or 12 or whatever, they might, and probably do, have different and maybe even opposite ideas of what is "reasoned" to be "just" in any given situation. It's a problem I've been wrestling with for over 50 years. How do you define justice? What may seem “just” to “A”, may not seem “just” to “B”. In culture 1 or culture 3 or 12 or whatever, they might, and probably do, have different and maybe even opposite ideas of what is “reasoned” to be “just” in any given situation.

It’s a problem I’ve been wrestling with for over 50 years.

]]> By: iowametal76 https://lastchancedemocracycafe.com/?p=927#comment-29460 iowametal76 Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:25:39 +0000 https://lastchancedemocracycafe.com/?p=927#comment-29460 Thank you Steve. That was terrific... sums up so well so many things I've thought and wanted to say. As with all of the epsiodes, it leaves me feeling more hopeful and more... human. Thank you Steve. That was terrific… sums up so well so many things I’ve thought and wanted to say. As with all of the epsiodes, it leaves me feeling more hopeful and more… human.

]]> By: hizzhoner https://lastchancedemocracycafe.com/?p=927#comment-29446 hizzhoner Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:32:21 +0000 https://lastchancedemocracycafe.com/?p=927#comment-29446 It's almost scary...read what I wrote just yesterday http://www.woodcodems.blogspot.com/ A fitting ending to the series.....something I'll be pondering for some time to come. (No offense but I need to mull your words over before I embrace them as, pardon the expression <strong>gospel</strong>) Thanks Steve for a wonderful set of episodes hizzhoner <strong>From Steve</strong>: Thanks hizzhoner.  And you're right about your post yesterday: great minds . . . and all that. It’s almost scary…read what I wrote just yesterday

http://www.woodcodems.blogspot.com/

A fitting ending to the series…..something I’ll be pondering for some time to come. (No offense but I need to mull your words over before I embrace them as, pardon the expression gospel)

Thanks Steve for a wonderful set of episodes

hizzhoner

From Steve: Thanks hizzhoner.  And you’re right about your post yesterday: great minds . . . and all that.

]]>