Giving thanks for old liberals

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9 Responses to “Giving thanks for old liberals”

  1. Chuck Says:

    Foe a more up-to-date version along the same line, See the TomDispatch article by John Brown of 11/18 of this year.

  2. Chuck Says:

    By “old liberals” would you include Jimmy Carter? The one of “The Carter Doctrine”? The one who said it’s O.K. to bomb another country if we think we need the oil? The one who gave justification for Gulf I & II?

  3. Chuck Says:

    Hmmm! Maybe that would be old liberals like Truman, that guy with good mid-western values who said something like “Let’s check out these nukes on them Japs. Hell, they ain’t nothing more than slant-eyed gooks anyway. If it works good! If not, it would be a good test. Or maybe we’re talking about a “good ole boy” southerner like LBJ who had to be pulled kicking & screaming into signing the civil rights act. The one who said he “hated the war in Viet Nam, but let’s get it goin’ anyway. It’s the only way I’ll get elected.”

    Just had to rant.

  4. Larkrise Says:

    ” The stupidity with which Bush & Co. have prosecuted this godforsaken war has tended to change the tone of dissent over the years — as though the principal sin of the undertaking was its incompetence rather than its immorality.” Great point, Steve. I agree with the very essence of that statement. Incompetence is certainly the one that those few Republicans who dont rubberstamp Bush, have used. It is the one that Hillary is using. (Another reason I hope she loses some primaries.) Too many people are still disappointed that they can’t steal Iraq’s oil for their damned SUV’s. They don’t want to be reminded of the terrible devastation and human suffering Bush has inflicted on the Iraqi people. At most, they may care a bit about our own troops. They don’t want to hear about the lies, the manipulation, the extremism, the greed and avarice that started the war and underly it’s continuation. Instead, they prattle on about the mismanagement. Well, Duh! Yes, it has most certainly been mismanaged from top to bottom. But, as you have said, that is not the real travesty. This war has killed a million Iraqis, displaced millions, destroyed their infrastructure and started a bloody civil war. The death count does not begin to include the number of human beings who have died from lack of clean water, sanitation, medication and medical care, and heaven only knows what other misfortunes brought on by being attacked. It is a tragedy of enormous proportions, beginning to approach that of the Holocaust. So, yes, this war IS IMMORAL!!!

  5. Again Says:

    great article, you’ve found, Steve - and a great man !

    I most certainly do not see God at work in the slaughter and destruction now unfolding in Iraq or in the war plans now being developed for additional American invasions of other lands….
    I don’t want to get too self-righteous about all of this. After all, I have passed the 80 mark, so I don’t want to set the bar of acceptable behavior too high lest I fail to meet the standard for a passing grade on Judgment Day.

    Wisdom of Age in its best form ;-)


    By “old liberals” would you include Jimmy Carter? … like Truman

    hmmmm - Chuck, inferring from the “80-something George McGovern” who is none of the leaders, i guess, Steve talks about common people, about THE American, the old freedom-loving style, not necessarily about some (pre-)aristocratic elites

    btw: what strikes me a little bit about Steve’s post is the term “godforsaken war” - i used the same words yesterday.

    How many else feel this way? And why can we all together not stop this “deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, religious or national group, those acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part”?

  6. alwayshope Says:

    But what the hell do we do? Everyone feels or denies feeling the immorality of this godforsaken war, probably none more than our soldiers. The recent news that more of our troops have taken their own lives than have been killed in battle speaks volumes about the morality of our actions and subsequent cruel stategy in Iraq.

    Hey, Steve, let me try a shot of whatever Chuck is drinking.

    From Steve: Molly is bringing it to your table.

  7. Again Says:


    The recent news that more of our troops have taken their own lives than have been killed in battle speaks volumes about the morality of our actions and subsequent cruel stategy in Iraq.

    sounds like a Greek tragedy - heroes, betrayed by the own king

    can you provide some sources, please?

  8. alwayshope Says:

    Again- Here’s one of the reports from CBS. I believe also did an article about this a few days ago. They both had the number at 120 per week in 2005. A tragedy yes.

    Help and Resources: Veteran Suicide
    By Laura Strickler
    CBS News

    Tuesday 13 November 2007

    Today, CBS News reported the findings of a five-month investigation into veteran suicides.
    CBS News’ investigative unit wanted the numbers, so it submitted a Freedom of Information Act request to the Department of Defense asking for the numbers of suicides among all service members for the past 12 years.

    Four months later, they sent CBS News a document, showing that between 1995 and 2007, there were almost 2,200 suicides. That’s 188 last year alone. But these numbers included only “active duty” soldiers.

    CBS News went to the Department of Veterans Affairs, where Dr. Ira Katz is head of mental health.

    “There is no epidemic in suicide in the VA, but suicide is a major problem,” he said.

    Why hasn’t the VA done a national study seeking national data on how many veterans have committed suicide in this country?

    “That research is ongoing,” he said.

    So CBS News did an investigation - asking all 50 states for their suicide data, based on death records, for veterans and non-veterans, dating back to 1995. Forty-five states sent what turned out to be a mountain of information.

    The results were startling: according to data from 45 states, 6,256 men and women who had served in the armed forces took their own lives in 2005 - that’s 120 suicides every week. Chief investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian and his investigative team found that veterans were more than twice as likely to commit suicide that year than non-veterans.

    Dr. Steve Rathburn is the acting head of the biostatistics department at the University of Georgia. CBS News asked him to run a detailed analysis of the raw numbers that we obtained from state authorities for 2004 and 2005.

    It found that veterans were more than twice as likely to commit suicide in 2005 than non-vets. (Veterans committed suicide at the rate of between 18.7 to 20.8 per 100,000, compared to other Americans, who did so at the rate of 8.9 per 100,000.)

    One age group stood out. Veterans aged 20 through 24, those who have served during the war on terror. They had the highest suicide rate among all veterans, estimated between two and four times higher than civilians the same age. (The suicide rate for non-veterans is 8.3 per 100,000, while the rate for veterans was found to be between 22.9 and 31.9 per 100,000.)

  9. Again Says:

    thank you very much for the hint

    it was “stunning” - simply googled “CBS news” suicides !

    and i didn’t find just the the original CBS-articles Suicide Epidemic Among Veterans, and Resources: Veteran Mental Health, but also the “impact” of the epidemic “Epidemic” of military suicides investigated (”In 2005 alone, there were 6,256 suicides nationally among those who served in the armed forces — about 120 deaths per week.”), “Stunning”: CBS News Discovers “Hidden Epidemic” of Military Suicides (offering many links), America suffers an epidemic of suicides among traumatised army veterans (please, ignore the first comment), Hidden Epidemic - 17 vets kill themselves EACH DAY in the US.. (a voice from sweden)

    btw: i stumbled across another article of CBS “FEMA’s Own Documents Tell The Formaldehyde Story”, about Katrina

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