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  1. richl Says:

    No people getting killed is not funny. I did laugh about the thousands of years of fighting though. He hit the nail square on the head. Likewise with the quotes of those opinionated Americans. :-)

    I have to say though I admire what they flotilla people were attempting to do, I have little sympathy for what happened to them. They knew quite well what they were going up against and knew that there was a probability of force being used against them including the possibility of being sunk. As Rachel Corrie found out, if you bet the other person will back down you had better be prepared to lose.

  2. alwayshope Says:

    I’m having computer trouble….grrrrrrrrrrrr.
    and working double shifts so have no time to fix it. As far as I know I’m wondering around without security protection. As soon as I get this figured out, I’ll be Baack. Hoping to chat about some stuff maybe Sunday.
    and yeah, some shit’s not funny.

  3. Chuck Says:

    Israel is the US’s spoiled brat. We ought to stop supporting them with weapons & $. And as long as I’m on a rant roll, how about stopping our illegal wars in Iraq & Afghanistan and those in Africa.? How about closing a bunch of our military bases? How about closing a bunch of those CIA bases? If we shut down all this shit we could probably balance the budget.

    I’ll be damned if I can see much difference between Obama & Bush.

  4. Larkrise Says:

    Obama has lost all credibility with me. I keep hoping somone with courage and real integrity will come on the scene and run in 2012 as an Independent.
    The Rachel Corrie has been boarded and all on board taken as hostages by the Israelis. It is sad that a people who have suffered so much seem immune and uncaring about the suffering of others. Israel is becoming a country run by thugs. And yes, it isnt funny, when 9 humanitarians are murdered.

  5. Larkrise Says:

    Dear alwayshope, I received a note on Facebook from Steve. I believe you did, too. I am up for helping. Will you be able to do so, with so much on your plate? Let me know. A few hardy souls still read this blog; and I think they would like to contribute.

    Hi, Chuck! You are right. If we quit killing and spending on wars, we might get back to a balanced budget. But, this country is addicted to war and war spending. The hew and cry is to always cut any kind of services that help the citizens of this land.

  6. Chuck Says:

    I don’t read facebook so let me know what Steve said.

  7. richl Says:

    You know folks you seem to have a rather lopsided view of Israel. Frankly if I had my way I’d “Nuke em till the glow and shoot them in the dark.” but I suspect my reasons are quite different than y’alls.

    Israel is attempting to defend it’s borders, and rightfully so. Israel did not instigate the fighting *, Syrians did with their continual attacks from the Golan heights into Jewish settlements and later Israel.

    If you were being bombarded would you not fight back?

    Have they become a puppet state of the U.S.? Perhaps, or perhaps the U.S. has become a puppet state of Israel. It’s one or the other but who’s which for sure and in the end does it matter?

    Is Israel’s continual armed response and the U.S. governments support of it a good way to go? Certainly not in my opinion but then I’m not the politician trying to get re-elected nor am I an arms dealer trying to sell my product nor am I a “peace activist” trying to force my beliefs on others.

    * “Long before the State of Israel was established in 1948, the Syrians turned the Golan Heights into a military fortress and conducted near-constant, daily routine shelling of northern Jewish villages. In Israel’s 1948 War of Independence, Syria overran the eastern Lake Kinneret (Sea of Galilee) border areas and occupied them until 1967, when Israel regained them along with the rest of the Golan Heights. In the Six Day War of June, 1967 Syria attacked Israel and was defeated. Israel captured the Golan Heights during the fighting, held them after the truce, and extended Israeli law to the area.
    View from Golan Heights

    The strategic value of the Golan Heights to Israel cannot be overstated. As with the mountain ridges of Judea and Samaria (the West Bank), the visual and radar stations located there give advance warning of any approach from Syria. Any attacking ground force would be effectively blocked by having to cross the Golan Heights. Conversely, if held by an enemy as in the past, it puts northern Israel directly under their guns.

    Furthermore, about one third of Israel’s fresh water supply originates there, in the watershed of Lake Kinneret (Sea of Galilee) and must be protected. In 1964, Syria, then occupying the Golan Heights, tried to divert these critical headwaters away from Israel in a blatant attempt to cripple Israel’s fresh-water supply. The IDF destroyed the Syrian damming project.”

    http://www.palestinefacts.org/index.php

  8. alwayshope Says:

    Larkrise
    I don’t have a facebook page so I tried to contact you through a friend’s page.
    Email me sometime and we’ll talk.

    Hey Chuck
    I went to my niece’s grad party yesterday in between shifts and someone had made a salsa. Whoa! I think some of your hybrid peppers may have escaped from your farm.

    The news these days. Can you believe it is one big disaster after another?
    I think our mother earth is trying to shake us off and I don’t blame her one bit. The first thing I think about when I open my eyes in the morning is the oil fouling our ecoysytems and killing our fellow creatures. As we realize that we, the idiotic people, don’t control a damn thing, we just get angrier and more frustrated. This helplessly hoping is wearing us down. I fear the only positive steps we could take must come from a Congress that no longer resembles a Democracy. Israel is just the bully of the week in a world with no shortage of bullies. My heart keeps telling me that peaceful protest and intelligent cooperation is the answer but in my head I hear only a tick…tick…tick.

  9. alwayshope Says:

    Richl
    I also admire the flotilla people as I always have the greenpeace people who put their lives on the line to protect the defenseless. We need to send a flotilla to DC full of ideas and turn them loose on our clueless Congress.
    By the way, has anyone visited the GOP site, Americaspeakingout?
    There are some hilarious posts. Once again the GOP has shown how utterly dim and foolish they really are.

  10. alwayshope Says:

    OMG
    Just got a call from a friend and neighbor about 3 miles away. he said come over, you won’t believe it, my house got destroyed by a tornado last night.
    It was a horrible storm, we stood on the deck and watched it go just north of us. I feel awful for him. We’re heading over there to see what we can do to help. Man, he just put a new roof and siding on it a last summer, poor guy.
    At least he’s okay.
    Gotta go.

  11. richl Says:

    alwayshope

    You misunderstood or misread me. I do not admire the people, I admire what they are trying to do which is, as you put it “to protect the defenseless.” The problem is they are supporting the Palestinian terrorists to a much greater extent than the Palestinian commoners. It has been shown time and again not only by Israeli and U.S. investigations but also by UN and NGO’s investigations in the Palestinian territories (as well as historically in similar situations) that food, medical supplies, water, etc. go first to the fighters and then, should anything remain, to the commoners. The cement that everyone likes to ridicule as “war supplies” is used more often in construction of smuggling tunnels than for repair of homes and public buildings.

    As I see it for the most part what these actions and slanted news reports are doing is getting everyone pissed off at Israel, at least as much for protecting itself as for the way it is protecting itself. So let me give you a few things to think about.

    First, the “apartheid” wall that everyone is so up in arms about. It causes disruptions sure enough but how many Palestinians has it killed and how many Israelis has it protected from both random gun shots and suicide bombers? (The primary purpose of any State is, after all, to protect it’s citizens.)

    Second, in the numerous instances over the decades when Israel did lower their guard and allow more or less free access to Israel who was it that started assassinating Israeli officials and commons citizens?

    Third, In the various instances of declared ceasefires over the decades who was it that most often broke the ceasefire, the Israelis or the Palestinians?

    Last of all. If somehow the Palestinian “freedom fighters” gained their goal of totally destroying the state of Israel do you think the Israelis would just wander away or do you think perhaps they would become “freedom fighters” lobbing mortars and taking pot shots at both guilty and innocent Palestinians?

    In my opinion if not all then at least most of the activists are simply getting off on a self-righteous adrenalin high by defending the “little people”, the “defenseless ones” or whatever label their self-serving inner self puts on Others. If they were serious they would take a page from Greenpeace (the core of which has already worked it’s way through this childish phase) and work through legal means to correct the perceived problems. Peacefully wage, continuous boycotts against any and all companies that do business with Israel or The Palestinian territories. Maintain the boycotts via massive newspaper, radio, television and www propaganda campaigns. And in countries where it is possible, study the people running for election and elect only those that are avowedly and provably anti Israel / Palestine status quo. Elect or nominate for election only those who will support and tighten sanctions against both.

    P.S. from a realist point of view.

    About 3900 years ago (roughly the latter part of the early bronze age) Hebrews made a concerted effort to permanently occupy the lands traditionally occupied by the wandering Canaanite tribes (roughly the areas we refer to as Palestine, Israel, Syria, etc.) and there has been little or no peace in the area since. Do you really think it will happen now? Peace, or relative peace, will only return to the area when Gaia has converted the last human to soil.

  12. Larkrise Says:

    I dont like my neighbor across the street. She is a fierce Right-Wing fanatic. She stole my election signs two years ago. I think she stole two Chinese lanterns off of my porch this spring. I need to keep a watchful eye on her. She and her husband are talking about selling their house. I hope they do. Nevertheless, while I want to protect my property, I would not go to her home and threaten or harm her. I try to remain civil.
    Israel may, indeed, need to build walls, must have a strong defense, and must keep a very watchful eye out for terrorists. However, killing 9 civilians, who wanted to help others, misguided or not, is wrong. Period. Perhaps they were naive; but that does not deserve a death sentence. I refuse to be an apologist for Israel in this and other instances. I do not support terrorism in any form from Israel, Palestine, Al Quaeda, Hamas or the United States in Afghanistan. I never will. “Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me.” If it doesnt begin somewhere, it will begin nowhere. In the end, behavior is all about personal choice. If you want to promote a never-ending cycle of violence, you will suffer the consequences. I guarantee that killing civilian non-combatants will not achieve one damned thing that is worthwhile.

  13. alwayshope Says:

    Richl
    It’s been a long day, I’ll have to get back to you. I’m having a beer and relaxing after spending the day helping a friend pick up the pieces after a tornado last night. We’ve got him fed and tucked in at a friend’s house and I’m just too tired to give your post a fair read tonight.
    I saw a little of mother nature’s power today in the twisted wreckage. It’s strange to see a force that can rip your roof off, blow out your windows, throw your fridge across the kitchen and leave the knickknacks undisturbed in the dining room. Just a wierd day seeing the power of a twisting wind. They call the wind Mariah……think she knows Gaia?

  14. Larkrise Says:

    If any of you get a chance, read Frank Rich’s column in the NYT for Sunday. Some of the reader’s comments are perceptive, too. One individual pointed out that Obama is duplicitous. The person gave the example that while Obama gave faint praise to the public option, behind the scenes, he was working against it. Obama has also strongly criticized Wall Street; but behind the scenes has worked on weakening any reform.
    I dont think his bulldog Holder is actually going to bring any criminal or civil actions against BP. We shall see. I smell Smoke and see Mirrors. Look closely at all the supposed reforms. Do they truly address the core of the problems?

  15. richl Says:

    alwayshope

    When nature calls you gotta go.:-)

  16. richl Says:

    Larkrise

    I totally agree that Israel (and the U.S. and Hamas and…) is going about things ass backwards. Guns are indeed the proper tool for use against aggression but a really, really poor choice for peace talks.

    As for the killings on the boat are concerned I am withholding judgment. At first sight it certainly does seem that they went overboard on the violence yet I have to question why only one ship out of the many. Could it be that Hamas had some people in the group? People willing to get themselves killed in order to build up public opinion against Israel? It would only take one undercover type attacking a soldier from within a pack of innocents to get them killed or wounded. Put say three violent types in a group of 40 or so and you have a recipe for exactly what happened.

    Here is something for you to chew on.

    Say your neighbors are attacking you. What do you do about them? You call the police because they are shooting at you. The police go to them and say ’shame, shame.’ then leave and the shooting starts again. You build a wall to ward of the shooting and they start lobbing bombs over it. Another call to the police another slap on the hands and the bombing continues. What’s your next move to protect yourself?

  17. alwayshope Says:

    Richl,
    At my friend’s house the last two days, I saw what neighbors can do. Some brought pizza, some just gawked and one stopped to say, “Pick up your damn crap up out of my corn field”. When my friend explained that he really didn’t have any way to drive around a corn field and pick up wreckage that probably wasn’t his any more than half the stuff in his own yard wasn’t even his, the man yelled, “fine, I’ll pick it up and bring it here and dump it in your yard, you deal with it.” My friend responded to him as he did with the others, “Okay, thanks for stopping by”.
    Neighbors come in all flavors.

    As for Israel and it’s neighbors.
    Building a wall seems to me to be an archaic means of self-defense, it’s more of a slap in the face and Israel, being surrounded by ancient enemies should find a new approach. I understand that they have to protect themselves against the extremists and that extremists are capable of infiltrating the most peaceful of organizations and corrupting their efforts.
    As you said, 3900 years of conflict is a hard habit to break but in my experience bringing pizza is way better than making threats. I know I am being simple minded but I am a simple woman. If both really wanted peace, a simple solution could be found. Peace “talks” will never work until all parties really WANT peace and I have no idea how you break through the old feuds and embedded hatred maybe just for long enough to get a taste of what peace would feel like, but I think a little taste would make them hungry for more. Perhaps Israel should start with the Palestian children. To offer hope to the children of Palistine, a chance for them to break the bonds of hate and fear and sense a chance for a future in which they have skills and selfworth could go along way toward softening the attitudes of their parents and leaders. The children should not suffer and Israel could help themselves if they embraced them as they would their own.

  18. richl Says:

    Fine and dandy, I totally agree. Now put your “Simple mind” to the problem of working out a practical means to accomplish your solution.

    The only solution I’ve ever come up with is to grab every child around, haul them off to an undisclosed location to be raised together without contact with the rest of the countries. Not practical of course but darned If I can think of any other way of breaking the cycle of prejudice that is part and parcel of their everyday life. Look how long the U.S. has been fighting racism with little success. Laws of course have reduced overt racism to a degree but racism itself is still healthy and rampant amongst us.

    The wall may indeed be a slap in the face but the reduction in attacks on Israelis (and probably Palestinians) has proved it’s worth. The blockade has also proved it’s worth. Now that Egypt has permanently opened the Rafa border crossing I give it 6 months, 12 at the outside, for arms shipments to the West Bank to be sufficient for Hamas to again start attacks against Israel.

    Perhaps we could convert crop spraying aircraft for spraying Orwell’s ‘Soma’ (the feel good drug) over the area?

  19. richl Says:

    Thinking on it further…

    From everything I’ve read about relations between the two groups there is (or has been) little animosity between them on a neighbor to neighbor, co-worker to co-worker basis. Most, of if not all the problems, seem to have been generated by special interest groups such as Hamas, elected officials and newspapers building straw man enemies in order to garner emotional and monetary support for their own benefit.

    If the above special interest groups could be neutralized I suppose the first step for Israel could be re-building and resupplying first the hospitals then the schools. I don’t suppose that using Israeli citizens would be a good move right off but they could donate the equipment and supplies to a third party, say some UN or UN sponsored organization that would do the actual rebuilding with outsiders. After the initial phase is well underway, perhaps with a couple of buildings completed, the foreign labor teams could slowly be replaced with mixed Palestinian / Israeli teams.

    Of course that still leaves the original problem, figuring out how to keep the U.S., E.U., U.A.R and the rest of them from poking their noses in where they don’t belong.

    Just have to ask. Does the farmer figure all the neighbors got together and purposefully throw junk into the wind in just the right way to cause it to land in the cornfield?

  20. Larkrise Says:

    For me the bottom line in the flotilla affair is not the presence of possible Hamas operatives. They are everywhere in Palestine anyway. The bottom line is that 9 people are dead. Those 9 people did not open fire on the Israelis first. They were on a humanitarian mission. They died because the Israelis have become more and more violent. Yes, they have suffered extreme violence. But, they attacked first in the flotilla incident. I refuse to apologize for them in any way. I see no difference in their behavior and Bush’s Pre-Emptive War Doctrine. Enemies are everywhere. However, it is best to clearly identify them. As in Pearl Harbor, one may need to attack, when attacked. As in Korea, HST correctly knew a land war in China was unwinnable and brought MacArthur home. The wise person makes wise AND humane decisions.

    Your hypothetical example of my neighbor attacking me is far-fetched. However, if that happened and the police refused to respond, my conclusion would be that the police are corrupt, or incompetent. That being the case, I would do well to fortify myself against attack or move. If I attacked my neighbor, the corrupt or incompetent police would arrest me, not them, for using deadly force. I would be the one to suffer the consequences. We could continue this scenario to extremes, but it is apples and oranges in relation to the flotilla incident. Let us agree to disagree.

    As for the question of how to make peace in the Middle East, I have no easy solutions. Yes, both sides must truly want it. I don’t think they do. They are addicted to revenge and tit for tat. How can this mindset be changed? What does history teach us?

  21. Larkrise Says:

    What do others think about Obama’s handling of the Gulf Oil Spill Disaster?
    I think he waited too long to use any means necessary to contain the spill. The former CEO of Shell Oil discussed a big spill in the Middle East. It was kept a secret. As soon as it happened, he said that huge oil tankers were brought in to surround the spill, separate the oil from the water, store the oil, and flush the water back into the sea. They kept this up until the spill was stopped. Didnt our government, with its spy satellites that can read the printing on a pack of cigarettes, know about this? Why didnt we do this. after the fire from the explosion was drowned? Why did Obama have so much faith in BP, when their safety record is terrible? Rachel Maddow shows booms being mismanaged that could be helping. In my opinion, listening to the people who caused the problem by their incompetence and corruption, is like welcoming the fox into the henhouse, letting him kill the chickens, then telling him to clean up the carcasses. His real focus will be on getting more chickens in the henhouse to eat.

  22. richl Says:

    Wow, straight out of Alice in Wonderland. No investigation results yet and no complete attack videos yet (or did I simply not find them) and yet it is

    “`I see!’ said the Queen, who had meanwhile been examining the roses. `Off with their heads!’”

    without a quiver or a shiver.

    Have a good life
    Rich L

    From Steve: Out of fairness, I’m going to post this and one other Israel related comment ( although it’s being posted late, as I’ve been out of town). But I think we’ve reached the point where it would be a good idea to take a cooling off period in discussing this issue (so it always goes with the Middle East). I’ll try to get another topic up. In the meanwhile, feel free to use this thread to converse, but for the most part at least I will be posting no further Israeli-Palestinian based comments on this thread for awhile.

    Thanks.

  23. alwayshope Says:

    Richl,
    For the record, the “farmer” is not a member of this community. No one around here knows him, he cash rents thousands of acres in this area but lives somewhere else. Probably a big corporate farm type so I’m not surprised at his unneighborly attitude.

    As for the Palestinian children, the world community should insist that only secular schools be built, the religious indoctrination should be entirely separated from the educational studies. This would force the parents to choose between providing their children with an opportunity to join the 21st century or keep them encapsulated in the old throwing rocks at windmills mentality. George Bush and Co. helped Hamas get elected with their usual arrogant, short-sighted and incompetent brand of “get her done”. I don’t think we should assume that all or even most Palestinans want to be ruled by exteme suicidal nutjobs. I’m just saying, why can’t the UN and the world make an offer to the PEOPLE not the government officials of Palestine. At least make offers of opportunity and hope and gauge the reaction from the streets and poor neighborhoods. If Hamas feels threatened by the modern world, they may overplay their hand and show the people just how backward and dangerously destructive they are to the goals average people have for their children. Does Hamas offer a happy, healthy life with opportunity to better themselves and their children and grandchildren? Hell no, they offer death and hate and stalemate. Who would CHOOSE that? We the world should speak directly to the Palistinian people and give them stark choices.
    How to get through the filters and get the message across……that’s another problem. How do we speak to them and how do we listen to them? I’m ignorant of how they get their news and how you would poll people who are not inclined to trust the pollers. The world community has to get heavily involved in this and stop standing on the sidelines alternately cheering for each side. Maybe we should drop a million Texas history books on them to let them know we are all in this together or send Helen Thomas to take a door-to-door survey.
    Okay, getting silly now, best to STFU.

  24. alwayshope Says:

    Larkrise,
    I don’t understand why Obama didn’t supply the fishermen with protective gear and bill BP. There must be thousands of unemployed people across the south, why not have a sort of New Deal program to offer construction jobs in rebuilding the natural barriers around new Orleans and cleaning the marshes and rehabing the wildlife…and send the bill to BP. Obama is looking for someone’s ass to kick…….why not start in his own “backyard”?

  25. Larkrise Says:

    alwayshope, your idea is great. But, I’ve given up on Obama. Paul Krugman has stated over and over that more infrastructure jobs need to be created to get the economy going again for the average citizen. Instead, Obama bailed out banks that wont lend money. I am highly suspect of the real accountability that will happen to BP for this spill. Salazar has been in bed with Big Oil and the M&M Dept. for years. Many of his cronies work there, as did Bush’s and Cheney’s. All the environmental groups of any importance begged Obama not to nominate Salazar. They opposed his nomination vigorously and petitioned Congress not to approve his nomination. Of course, they did anyway, because he is one with Big Oil and Big Mining. He has had 2 yr. to clean up the mess in M&M and has done very little, if anything, of substance. As usual, there has been a lot of empty promises, hot air, rhetoric, and little else. Business As Usual carries the day. Once the Media tires of the Gulf Coast disaster, there will be commissions, investigations, and not much will change. He who has the gold makes the rules in this Oligarchy. I am sorry to be such a pessimist. I wish I could say there will be substantive change. But, Big Oil will lobby longer and harder and politicians will drool over the campaign donations and the under-the-table deals. It doesnt matter which Party is in charge. The Republicans and Democrats are equally corrupt.

    I think that the Obama Adm. is underestimating the amount of damage this oil spill will do to the economy and the health of the country, as a whole. If we really do have a terrible hurricane season, the toll will be even greater from highly polluted tidal surges. The other weather factor that no one is talking about, is how this massive spill will affect moisture-laden weather systems that travel northward from the Gulf. How much will the moisture, which comes from Gulf waters, be contaminated in these weather systems? They spread through, not only the South, but into the Midwest and on to the East Coast. The oil, plus the dispersants, are covering a huge area and are toxic. They are going to be there a long time. We are poisoning ourselves with greed, corruption, incompetence and stupidity. Tyrannesaurus Rex will be no more.

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